I got roasted yesterday - Page 2 - 2014+ Jeep Cherokee Forums
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:51 AM
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I've found auto to give me faster 0-60 times from a dead stop. Also, try power braking but not for more than 2 or 3 seconds. Gives you a pretty hard launch.


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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SS_Syndicate View Post
Third gear in the KL is way too tall for a long drag race.

1st and 2nd are great, but the gap in 3rd is WAY too far and why she climbed all over you on the stretch.

I like our Jeeps, but Ford is far superior when it comes to power-train and power utilization.
Looking at performance specs, these two vehicules are very closely matched.
And let's give credit where credit is due : the 3.5L V6 in that Edge is a Mazda engine

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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 11:06 AM
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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 12:02 PM
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Next competition, go out on a very rough back woods road. She'll be toast over what the Cherokee can do!!
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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_ View Post
Looking at performance specs, these two vehicules are very closely matched.
And let's give credit where credit is due : the 3.5L V6 in that Edge is a Mazda engine
The 3.5L in all Fords was in fact a joint development with Mazda (as with many other things), but that's where it ends. The engine is assembled in Lima Ohio. I have worked with several of the engineers and I wouldn't call it a Mazda engine.

I've learned over the years properly pairing the transmission and final drive gearing to the engine is key. Ford has a history of doing well at this. Jeep on the other had has not. It's true the Ford and Jeep engine are close on paper, but it doesn't matter if the gearing doesn't allow the engine to use the power efficiently. The 3.5L has a much flatter torque speed curve than the 3.2L Pentastar only increasing the need for proper gearing.

I'm not saying Jeep did everything wrong. In fact, I think the issue is that Jeep optimized the torque utilization more for where it will be used (lower speeds on the trail). Where Ford targets their use for interstate and roads. Further evidence of this is the fact that the KL literally has no ability to stay in a gear under even the slightest of loads at highway speeds. One would think that with 9 speeds we could have both, but Jeep seemed to call it "good enough" when it came to the highway development and gearing. Case-and-point who actually gets to use the 9th gear?
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS_Syndicate View Post
The 3.5L in all Fords was in fact a joint development with Mazda (as with many other things), but that's where it ends. The engine is assembled in Lima Ohio. I have worked with several of the engineers and I wouldn't call it a Mazda engine.

I've learned over the years properly pairing the transmission and final drive gearing to the engine is key. Ford has a history of doing well at this. Jeep on the other had has not. It's true the Ford and Jeep engine are close on paper, but it doesn't matter if the gearing doesn't allow the engine to use the power efficiently. The 3.5L has a much flatter torque speed curve than the 3.2L Pentastar only increasing the need for proper gearing.

I'm not saying Jeep did everything wrong. In fact, I think the issue is that Jeep optimized the torque utilization more for where it will be used (lower speeds on the trail). Where Ford targets their use for interstate and roads. Further evidence of this is the fact that the KL literally has no ability to stay in a gear under even the slightest of loads at highway speeds. One would think that with 9 speeds we could have both, but Jeep seemed to call it "good enough" when it came to the highway development and gearing. Case-and-point who actually gets to use the 9th gear?
Agreed about the gearing and torque curves for the KL. On highway speeds, I am on average in 7th gear more so than 8th gear, and I've only ever reached 9th gear one time, and it was going slightly downhill at 75mph, and revs were at around 1500rpm.

And this is only in southern Wisconsin. What about areas in the Rocky, or Smoky mountains? You'll likely be in 5th or 6th gear for all those big hills. This engine was clearly designed for high-revs, so it is not surprising in that regard. Under slow-speeds though, it won't have to shift as often due to loads at low speeds.

I mentioned this before, but I loved the torque and ease of passing with my parents' 2007 Grand Cherokee CRD, and it did not have to downshift hardly ever when passing.

Why didnt FCA bring over the diesel Cherokee in the US, especially when they have another CRD engine in their current GC, and Ram pick-ups?
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Last edited by Shoulder; 02-01-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 01:05 PM
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Why didnt FCA bring over the diesel Cherokee in the US, especially when they have another CRD engine in their current GC, and Ram pick-ups?
It has to do with how we move freight and the lack of mass transit infrastructure.

When crude oil is refined it gets split into lots of products. A percentage becomes gasoline, some becomes diesel, and there are other products as well (see image below). The point is every amount of crude becomes a percentage of these products.



Oversees, freight is largely moved by other means than truck like here in the US. The result is that they have excess diesel to use so it's available and cheaper. Because we use so much diesel to move freight it isn't as available and is in higher demand. Introducing diesel engines into the consumer market upsets this further and drives the cost of diesel (and freight) up. We saw this not long ago and the result was higher diesel prices than gasoline. This ultimately moved people away from it, and back to gasoline engines, and the price of diesel dropped.

Manufacturers are aware of this and have political pressure to not introduce to many diesels into the US market.
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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS_Syndicate View Post
The 3.5L in all Fords was in fact a joint development with Mazda (as with many other things), but that's where it ends. The engine is assembled in Lima Ohio. I have worked with several of the engineers and I wouldn't call it a Mazda engine.

I've learned over the years properly pairing the transmission and final drive gearing to the engine is key. Ford has a history of doing well at this. Jeep on the other had has not. It's true the Ford and Jeep engine are close on paper, but it doesn't matter if the gearing doesn't allow the engine to use the power efficiently. The 3.5L has a much flatter torque speed curve than the 3.2L Pentastar only increasing the need for proper gearing.

I'm not saying Jeep did everything wrong. In fact, I think the issue is that Jeep optimized the torque utilization more for where it will be used (lower speeds on the trail). Where Ford targets their use for interstate and roads. Further evidence of this is the fact that the KL literally has no ability to stay in a gear under even the slightest of loads at highway speeds. One would think that with 9 speeds we could have both, but Jeep seemed to call it "good enough" when it came to the highway development and gearing. Case-and-point who actually gets to use the 9th gear?
Yes the ZF9s are not optimally programmed for the V6 Cherokees ; it seems as though all the good Fiat programmers are in Europe, maybe all on the Ferrari F1 team, because the programming for our Jeeps could be improved.

I think... the 3.5L has 14 more ponies and we don't really need to look elsewhere. If we had the 3.6L Pentastar in the Cherokee, we wouldn't be here taking about the Cyclone 3.5L engine, if not to say how far behind OP would have seen his wife in the rearview mirror

Torque curve *much flatter* ? I fail to see that, see pics below. What I see is the Cyclone getting to max torque 400rpm sooner, that's about it...

Below is the 3.2L :


Below is the Edge's 285HP V6 :


And finally, below is the Journey's 283HP version of the 3.6L Pentastar :


Note : torque scale at left is different for the 3.6L (goes up much higher), so consider this when reading the graph.
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Last edited by Mark_; 02-01-2017 at 01:59 PM. Reason: added note
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 02:00 PM
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Maybe this will help?

Seems better, sounds cooler lol
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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS_Syndicate View Post
It has to do with how we move freight and the lack of mass transit infrastructure.

When crude oil is refined it gets split into lots of products. A percentage becomes gasoline, some becomes diesel, and there are other products as well (see image below). The point is every amount of crude becomes a percentage of these products.



Oversees, freight is largely moved by other means than truck like here in the US. The result is that they have excess diesel to use so it's available and cheaper. Because we use so much diesel to move freight it isn't as available and is in higher demand. Introducing diesel engines into the consumer market upsets this further and drives the cost of diesel (and freight) up. We saw this not long ago and the result was higher diesel prices than gasoline. This ultimately moved people away from it, and back to gasoline engines, and the price of diesel dropped.

Manufacturers are aware of this and have political pressure to not introduce to many diesels into the US market.
Sounds like a Diesel Lobby that favors those in the Freight Industry.

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